Hi Alan -

Thanks for reaching out. We'll speak to a couple of folks and see if we can pull together some different ideas for you. We'll post them here once we have them.

Talk soon,

Derek@Zeo

[derek@myzeo.com]

Hi Alan -

Sorry for the delay. We posed this question to our experts for an expert answer. Here's what we heard back from them…

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Q: Given a fairly steady sleep quality and ZQ, some weeks I feel great, and some weeks I feel terrible. Any ideas on what is going on?
Answer by: Steve Fabregas, Research Scientist @ Zeo

How we feel during the day is greatly influenced by how we sleep. But how we sleep is not the only contributing factor to how we feel. What we eat, how active we are, how much sunlight we get, and many other things can influence how alert, fatigued, tired, or sleepy we feel.

One of the best ways to identify what could be going on is to keep track of how you’re feeling from day to day and comparing that with how you’re sleeping and what you’re doing. Paying close attention to these factors can lead to great insights into how we’re doing. If you can measure it, you can manage it - or so the saying goes.

Another option, is to speak to a sleep specialist. A sleep study may help, but won’t be able to figure it all out. Sleep studies only look at one night and are often used to look for breathing or movement issues more than anything else. A good conversation with a knowledgeable professional could go a long way.

I experience the same problem.  What I have found is at times my REM sleep percentage of 35-50% appears higher than average (20-25%).  My ZQs are above 100 but I rarely feel rested upon waking, even after sleeping 8+ hours.  It sounds like a similar situation.  I've had a sleep study and nothing unusual came up (just like you). 

Honestly, I am beginning to think this is due to the lack of understanding of REM sleep and what's involved.  Infants sleep many many hours, and they spend about 50% of their sleep time in REM. REM is important but too much - might it leave you tired?  There is some language out there that indicates this may be the case.  However, this is not a well understood concept within the medical world.  Usually people think - "the more REM the better."

I was reading on another ZEO post that going to bed earlier may help reduce REM, although I don't know if that will be very effective.  Anti-depressants reduce REM dramatically but that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen - I'd rather have too much REM than get on heavy drugs to reduce REM.  Another option that some people have toyed with is L-tryptophan.  I tried this supplement and didn't see any noticeable results.

I am open to any other suggestions you have.  I think ZEO must have some great data now and I wonder if they are noticing a segment of the population that is getting exceptional amounts of REM.

Hi there,

To answer your follow-up questions, I asked several of our experts to weigh in; here is what they had to say. 

While going to bed earlier won't necessarily reduce your time in any sleep stage–as sleep stages are tied more to your circadian rhythm than to a specific point on the clock–getting up earlier could certainly cut into your REM sleep.  As you know, REM tends to happen during the second half of a night's sleep, so by waking up earlier, you can disrupt and cut short a final REM cycle.

With regards to what's "normal" for time in REM, it's important to remember that everyone's time in a sleep stage is unique to them.  Some people get 20% of REM each night while others get a little more.  Granted, there is a correlation between excessive REM sleep and not getting enough deep sleep, as well as excessive REM and depression;  however, this usually includes individuals who are also getting excessive sleep in general (over ten hours).  8-9 hours of sleep per night falls within the National Sleep Foundations' recommended 7-9 hours, and is therefore, not considered to be excessive.

The quality of emotions during the day may play a role too, as intense and negative emotions are linked with higher REM cycles for those with depression. But for people without depression, there is not a link between intensity of daytime emotion and the amount of REM sleep.  

An ever bigger question to ask yourself is whether or not REM sleep is the culprete for your daytime fatigue.  You've already seen a sleep specialist for testing–which is good–but it might be wise to consider other possibilities.  In a recent interview, Dr. John Winkelman discussed some factors that could disturb sleep, leading to feeling tired during the day, as well as the need to work with a physician to help get to the bottom of a particular sleep issue.

Since I started using Zeo, my ZQ has being around 100/110, in average. But my dayly feeling was not so good: I experienced depression, tiredness, lack of motivation etc.

My REM sleep rate was always about 40/50% of the total amount time.

Later in my researches, I discovered that, when it comes to REM sleep, THE MOST ISN'T THE BETTER!

I started 3 days ago to sleep only 4h30 a night. When the time comes, my Zeo SmartWake rings!

MY LIFE CHANGED COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!

Nowadays, even sleeping less, I have the same quantity of REM sleep than a "normal" person.

And, since my deep sleep also lasts much more than the average, WITH ALMOST HALF OF THE "NORMAL" QUANTITY OF SLEEP (8 HOURS), I HAVE THE SAME QUALITY OF IT!

However, if you guys doesn't have an abnormal proportion of deep sleep as well, think about take at least 1000 mg of L-Tryptophan 30 minutes before go to bed. You will sleep the same amount of time, but the percentage of REM sleep will decrease sharply and your sleep patterns will normalize.

Greetings.
I had the same issue- it seemed like I was getting "good" sleep, but I still work up tired. I had a sleep test which revealed that my oxygen levels were really, really low at night... a combination of low blood pressure, the sleep state, and bad allergies blocking my sinuses. Another sign of low oxygen levels while sleeping is to have a slight headache when you wake up.
There are some oxygen products on the market. I've been taking one called Homozon, and it has actually helped my sleep. It's more for digestive issues, and has magnesium in it. The magnesium helps me feel sleepy.

I have the same problem. I have only had the Zeo for a week, but I got it because I feel awful most days. I have sleep apnea and use a CPAP machine. According to the Zeo my sleep is as good as an average person of my age. I don't believe that they are all wandering round in a fog, yawning!
We have spent money on a new mattress, I have berated my husband about his nocturnal wakings, so he disturbs me less, I had a baseline sleep test to check up on the apnea, I will have to check out the oxygen issue.

I have found that often if I sleep too much, I spend all or most of the day kind of groggy.  I don't know what the mechanism of excessive sleep causing tiredness could possibly be, but it has happened to me many times.

My Zeo score is usually between 90 and 100 and I wake up dead tired.  I only get about 11-15% deep sleep.  Could that be why?  I take Ropinirole (Requip) for RLS and that helps a great deal but I am still very tired despite the high Zeo scores.  Please help!

Matt

Usually, when I get an average of 10 hours of sleep, my ZQ score averages to 130. And, I can barely get out of bed when I awake and feel groggy, tired. Statistics for these nights are usually 27% REM, 17% Deep, and 56% Light, with no awakenings throughout the sleep. The other night, I slept for 11.5 hours. I set one of Zeo's alarms to wake me up so I would get 9 hours of sleep and when that woke me up, I felt better, sort of awake but I kept laying down and looked at my phone, then after a minute I fell back asleep and woke up 2.5 hours later when someone woke me up. I felt so tired and it took me a while to actually get out of bed. ZQ of 136. I don't drink alcohol, no smoking, did not really do any physical activities the day before that sleep.

I've looked on the forums and have never seen of a score of 136. If I sleep less than 11 hours, say 5-8 hours, I can barely get out of bed without someone repeatedly waking me up or hitting snooze on my alarm for an hour (really, an hour if that, snooze every 5 minutes).What do you guys think? It's really frustrating. Have any of you have a ZQ of 136+ ?

Dilandau