How can I get more REM !!??

published by Three and four on Thu, 12/16/2010 - 04:53
English

Hello Sleep Fans!

I've been using Zeo for about three weeks now - it's really a great tool and my sleep quality has already improved (mostly because it became obvious to me that I was not sleeping enough, and that chocolate in the evenings was keeping me awake).

However, I'm still puzzled by one thing: my low REM score, which is generally somewhere between 30 and 40 mins per night. I KNOW I feel better during the day when I've had more REM (because it has happened a few times).

 So, I'd really like to know how I can boost this REM score. The research I've done so far has not been very productive: "sleep more" is the main theme (as more REM happens in morning…).

Fine, I've tried that:

last Friday night I slept… 9h19 mins (ZQ 95), but only got… 45 mins of REM!

I drink very little alcohol, am in good physical shape, don't smoke, don't drink coffee or tea after lunch, sleep about 7h30 per night (since Zeo), work out a couple of times a week, regularly practice yoga, eat healthily…  I fall asleep quite easily at night, and deep sleep is stable, between 50 and 60 mins per night.

Any help or suggestions concerning boosting REM would be most welcome!

Forums:

Kristine Krever

Tue, 01/04/2011 - 15:57

I'm no sleep expert but I can tell you that when I starting using a supplement with N-acetyl-carnitine, alpha-lipoic acid and biotin I had a tremendous increase in dreaming and the vividness of dreams.  I started using this well before I got my zeo, so I can't say for sure if it changed my actual REM sleep.  Other people I've talked to have reported this same increase in dreaming with this supplement.  There is a branded form of it called Juvenon- their website has a lot of information.  It seems to work to prevent oxidative stress on mitochondria.  It's unlikely to hurt you so maybe you could give it a try.  Let me know if it works for you!

Three and four

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 03:31

Hi
lazyhead,

Thanks for
the ideas. I actually already take the supplement you mention (but from a
different brand). However, I was out of stock when I got Zeo so my readings
during the first few weeks were without it. The thing is, when I started taking
the pills again, during these last holidays, my REM increase was more probably
due to absence of work stress and even more time to sleep. (Holiday
sleep was longer and with more REM, but still considerable below where it
should be).

I'll see if
continuing to take it now that I'm back to work will keep REM a bit higher.
(But if Monday night was anything to go by, things are not looking great: I
only got 20 mins of REM that night, despite the Acetyl & Lipoic combo).

I've also
been experimenting with Alpha GPC and Galantamind, which have positive results.
However, I'd rather find a longer term solution which does not involve
supplements (or whatever other drugs/substances). But I'll keep trying this and
that, within reasonable (and legal) boundaries.

Cheers!

Brian O'Laughlin

Fri, 01/07/2011 - 11:40

In "The Four Hour Body", Tim Ferris reports success raising REM with Huperzine (200mcg-400mcg), with the caveat of not taking it for more than two weeks in a row.

 

Perhaps worth a try. It's sold OTC with vitamins.

Andrea Castonguay

Thu, 01/27/2011 - 11:11

three and four said:

The thing is, when I started taking the pills again, during these last holidays, my REM increase was more probably due to absence of work stress and even more time to sleep. Holiday sleep was longer and with more REM, but still considerable below where it should be.

I think you may be onto something with a longer sleep time and with less life stress.  Easier said that done, but it could be that your body is saying that it needs more time in bed each night in order to recoup the amount of REM it needs.  Remember that the NSF recommends between 7-9 hours of sleep each night; for some people this means 7.5 hours; for others it could mean 8 or even 9.  Getting 9 hours on the weekend is great, but it's even better if you get that every night to help reduce overall sleep debt and get the most out of your sleep every night.

I'd also recommend using the sleep journal to track factors such as how stressful you felt your day was.  Make use of the notes section to jot down anything that may have had an impact, such as a busy day (or week) at work, anything that was on your mind, or even, how you would describe yourself in two or three adjectives.  Likewise, use this section to note any positives as well.  The more data you have, the more informed decisions you can make about your sleep.  Other things you could track:  

    • *The effects of naps–often an early to mid afternoon nap can include a REM cycle
    • *Any medication or suppliments you may take–asprin, antihistimines, and anti-depressants may reduce REM as well

In addition, there is the possibility that meditation, including some kinds of yoga, can reduce REM periods at night, due to the similarities between REM and some meditative states of conciousness.  Check out Shapiro and Walsh's Meditation: Classic and Contemporary perspectives for more info.

Lastly, it's important to remember that everyone's sleep is different and that an "average" number is just that.  Of course, if you suspect that there could be a more serious underlying issue with your sleep, it is best to talk to your doctor or a knowlegable physician and go from there.   

 

Three and four

Fri, 02/11/2011 - 03:03

Many
thanks, Andi, for your wise words as well as your useful tips. Indeed, I'm
starting to strongly suspect that some sort of "sleep debt" issue
might be at the bottom of this. If more time in bed can be achieved, and less
stress, then more REM could well follow.

Zeo is
certainly a great tool in helping to move towards this.

Heather Stoker

Sat, 02/12/2011 - 02:11

Oddly enough, people who are depressed tend to get a ton of REM sleep, and that's not necessarily a good thing.  Google REM and depression and you will find a few articles.  I can tell you that my REM has dropped significantly- I now average 70 mins a night in a 5.5- 6 hour night vs. the 2+ hours I was getting when I was going through a very rough time after first getting my Zeo.  So... at least you can confirm that you probably are not depressed, lol!

Sheila (not verified)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:39

My sleep doc told me many antidepressants inhibit REM sleep. Two sleep studies showed little or no REM. I am on an SNRI (Effexor) and Savella for fibromyalgia (also an SNRI). Good news is I have REM-dependent apnea so with low REM, I suffer little apnea. Bad news: you all know the multiple effects of low REM.

Damiana1979

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 02:12

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William, RPSGT (not verified)

Mon, 11/07/2011 - 21:41

People typically get 4-5 REM cycles a night. Every 90-120 minutes(give or take). That being said, there can be a lot of different circumstances that can either limit the amount of REM or limit the amount of total sleep time. Arousals(abrupt shifts in EEG frequency lasting at least 3 seconds), can be frequent in sleep, sometimes associated with restless legs syndrome, or even apnea based events.

das997

Mon, 03/19/2012 - 13:04

I've heard of a recent experiment/hypothesis where you actually force (alarm) yourself awake in the middle of the night for a few minutes, and then go back to sleep. The idea is that your body craves REM early in the morning, and you are denying it that same REM. When you fall back to sleep, it tries to "catch up" by longer REM sessions.

In my experience, anything to do with supplements has some kind of downside. Benzo's depress deep sleep. Others suppress REM. Still others - who knows. The best sleep is the completely natural one...