Fractured/fragmented sleep - and nothing...

published by das997 on Mon, 01/16/2012 - 19:02
English

I wake up an average of 12 times per night - sometimes falling back asleep quickly, sometimes up for hours. The problem is that no matter what I do during the day (exercise, light in the am, nighttime routine, no alcohol, no TV,  etc) nothing seems to impact this number. My ZQ is all over the place - from the 40's to the 70's, but awakenings remain constant between 8 and 20 (average around 12). Can anyone think why this might be? I figure if I can resolve the awakening issue, the insomnia becomes a non-event. See http://buildbettersleep.com/the-sleep-riddle/.

Forums:

Robert Davis

Tue, 01/17/2012 - 06:54

Have you ruled out any sleep disorders such as Sleep Apnea?

Doug Stewart (not verified)

Tue, 01/17/2012 - 11:57

I'm not overweight and I don't snore although I do find myself awake and have a strange breathing phenomenon - breathe regularly/deeply for 5-6 breaths, then a pause for about 10 seconds, then breathe regularly again. Wonder if this may be a kind of non-obstructive apnea (CSA - Central Sleep Apnea - http://buildbettersleep.com/eight-natural-cures-for-sleep-apnea/)?

Andi@Zeo's picture

Andi@Zeo

Wed, 01/18/2012 - 11:22

Hi Doug,

If you're finding that your breathing seems a little off, then it might be a wise idea to speak to your physician about it. It's also possible to have apnea or apnea-like signs if you're not overweight, as Zeo user Kevin Kruse found out.  At any rate, it never hurts to fully investigate any any all potential factors leading to sleep fragmentation.

 

kristianw

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 14:30

Hi Doug, how did you get on?

It definitely sounds to me like it's a neurological sleep problem. I've had the same thing for 6 years and the doctors wouldn't believe me when I said it was CSA and that my breathing stopped during the day.

So I commissioned a private sleep study this year and it showed severe hypopnea (AHI 37) - though they said it was obstructive. I asked to see the trace - it looked like periodic breathing or Cheyne-Stokes to me. This was recently confirmed as 'chemoreflex-driven' by a specialist in the US.

I've just got the Zeo and it appears I do have problems getting deep sleep. I've plotted the 30-second data and it looks even more fragmented, which pretty much reflects how I've been feeling for ages: hung over, in a daze, unfocused, in a permenant state of brain fog. The really fun thing is it'll eventually cause heart failure...

Something to try is CO2 because essentially it's a loop gain problem. If the brain sees CO2 it'll keep on breathing. There's a paper on this, a re-breather space was added to CPAP and it helps AHI.

So my plan is to use Zeo to track improvements with this mask I made.

What also happens with this disease is you may never get it diagnosed by conventional sleep labs unless it's clear-cut CSA. It generally appears as 'mixed' or 'complex' SA and this is simply because at low flow (as your effort wanes) the upper airway collapses more easily (papers on this too so all this ought to be common knowledge, but isn't).

So it's a lot more common than doctors would have you believe. About 15% of everyone presenting for sleep study I heard.

There are also drugs and supplements that would help.

Look forward to hearing what's happened with your diagnosis...

Kris

das997

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 17:44

Hi Kris:

Thanks for your interest and your insight....  The sleep has been gradually getting better. I now am aware of only two or three major awakenings during the night (it used to be a dozen or more that I was conscious of), and regularly get 5-7 hours of "almost normal" sleep. So, while I do still think it's a CSA issue, I also believe it's correcting itself over time. Last time I had on the Zeo (a couple of months ago) it still showed lots of awakenings - but I happened to wear it on a bad night. I'll try it again sometime soon and post the results on my blog.

Cheers,

Doug

das997

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 16:48

So I went to my Dr. today, and showed him several of the Zeo charts I had - number of awakenings, duration of awake time, a typical night, etc. He was pretty impressed, and when I asked if it was reasonable to investingate central sleep apnea, he agreed that it was. So as a first step, I'm going to wear an oximeter on my finger at night to see if oxygenation changes during the course of the night. Then we'll go from there. So one up for Zeo - the doc (or me) would never have found this without a sleep lab test (something he likely would never have prescribed).

stirfryjedi

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:56

I have been having pretty serious sleeping problems, always feeling like I was tossing and turning all night and not falling asleep at all. I went and had a sleep study done, which revealed something very interesting. Turns out I AM falling asleep, but I keep moving around and waking up, thus cycling in and out of a very light sleep and infrequently reaching the deeper stages.

I've been using my Zeo for about a week, and the same thing seems to be holding true - I AM falling asleep, but like you, das997, I keep waking up 12 times a night. I think this is where my problem lies, and I'm not sure what to do about it. The sleep clinic wants to call this restless leg syndrome and give me some drugs, but I'm not too keen on that idea. I've tried a few, but they always make me feel like a zombie the next day.

Has anyone else reading this been able to solve this particular problem?

das997

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:12

Funny - I just wore the Zeo again last night (have been using it on off the last few months), and although the sleep has improved immensely (I actually FEEL as though I get some sleep every night - 5 or 6 hours at least) there still is an issue of wakenings. Last night the number was 15. There doesn't seem to be any "sleep cycle" that I can make out - there's no regular rhythm from light to deep to REM, and no particular timing between all the stages. I've gone off all the drugs, and refuse to go back on them - the untintended consequences are too great (next day drowsiness, dependence, and who knows what years from now). I had an overnight oxymeter test, which showed I do not have Central Sleep Apnea, and I really don't think I have restless leg syndrome. I'm now OK with the sleep I get, although I would really like to solve this constant awakening WITHOUT meds.

stirfryjedi

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:19

I have been considering buying a mattress topper from Mypillow.com. My bed is a Tempurpedic. It's pretty firm, but unfortunately, it was the softest one I could afford. I've been wondering if I'm tossing and turning because my bed is so hard and I just can't get comfortable.

das997

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:27

I have a mattress topper (memory foam) and have tried it both on and off. The bed is pretty firm with it off, and pretty plush with it on. Bottom line - no difference, although we're considering taking the topper off permanently (it requires more effort to roll over).

erichards

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 10:15

Is there a great disparity between the quality of sleep with and without a memory foam mattress topper ? Is a topper capable of a big enough impact to make a difference?

das997

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 11:44

I don't know if there really is a diference.

I'd like to get an opinion from another insomniac about a Japanese style bed - very firm and on the floor. I think we've "invented" the whole soft/plush/firm/hard/luxurious bedding issue - and it really isn't linked to quality sleep at all. Thoughts?

erichards

Wed, 12/12/2012 - 17:25

I've heard great things about these memory foam mattresses but they may not be practical for everyone. A memory foam mattress topper however is often your better choice as it allows subtle change, not seismic alterations

stirfryjedi

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:27

Glad to hear you don't have sleep apnea...that would suck. On the other hand, if you did, at least you would KNOW what the problem is!