Some folks have indicated that excercise gave a boost to their deep sleep. As for REM sleep, personally, I've found that the best way for me to get more REM sleep is to get more sleep in the mornings - but my schedule is flexible enough to allow me to sleep in occasionally, when I really need it. Although my sleep would probably be better off with a good tight schedule...

Matt, i am also interested in increasing my deep sleep.  I get 5-10 minutes per night and I'm convinced this is a primary reason I have suffered from chronic muscle pain for 10 years.  I did get a boost to 30-40 minutes per night when i stopped taking a valium before bed. My doctor had told me I would sleep better!  I found some scientific journal references that showed valium decreases deep sleep although may increase total sleep in some people.  So when I quit, within 2 nights i was in the 20s and by a week later was hitting 35-40.  Unfortunately, the effect wore off within a month and I am back down to 5-10 minutes. 

Have tried melatonin (no effect), Night Time (valerian, melatonin, 5 hydroxy tryptophan, hops, passion flower and chamomile) no effect.

Ambien also does nothing for my deep sleep except maybe I wake up after 5 hours instead of 4 hours. 

Will keep searching and post if I find anything that works.

 

Oh- I even tried a device called EarthPulse that emits low frequency electromagnetic waves (you put it under your mattress).  It was touted as improving sleep in 95% of people.  I'm in the 5% apparently.  they gave my $ back because Zeo allowed me to document and prove that it didn't help my sleep.  Go Zeo!

Matt, do you feel more alert during the day or better in any other way?  This increases acetylcholine in the brain and is prescribed for Alzheimers.  If it helps your REM that's great.  Did it do anything for your deep sleep one way or the other?  I'm concerned because many things that increase one cause the other to go down (REM vs. deep sleep).  My average REM is probably 90 minutes or so, which is pretty normal.

Good sleeping.

dick

Hi all,

 

i just started to use the myzeo for the exact purposes of
figuring out the answers to your questions. I have researched sleep and dreams
for a little over 6 years now and have spent a lot of time into understanding
what happened to the brain with the support of specific neurotransmitters. One
of those neurotransmitters and the first one on my list to study is serotonin.

 

Here is a little bit about how serotonin and acetylcholine
work on the brain during sleep modulation:

 

 The transition
from NREM to REM is described by Allen Hobson and Robert McCarley in their
proposed hypothesis of activation synthesis as a process of modulation and
demodulation of specific areas of the brain in which dreams are produced
(Barrett & McNamara, 2007; Hobson, 2002). This activation synthesis
hypothesis builds its foundation on the concepts produced by the REM Dream
Theory. In REM Dream Theory, specific neurotransmitters acetylcholine (ACh) and
histamine REM on, as well as serotonin REM off cause either modulation or
demodulation of the brainstem (Hobson, 2002). The activation synthesis theory
states that during the transitional phase between NREM and REM sleep, the
brainstem has already systematically deactivated the aminergic systems, which
disengages the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and blocks muscle motor function
via the pontine brainstem’s deactivation of the anterior horn cells. The now
deactivated aminergic system results in the loss of the ability to process new
memories, cognitive functions of the ego, and the paralysis that inhibits the
acting out of dreams (Hobson, 2002). This deactivation accounts for the common
occurrence of amnesia that many people experience during sleep, the inability
to understand self and to recognize the bizarreness of dreams, as well as the
inability to move which has been experienced by some lucid dreamers, night
terror patients, and narcoleptic patients (Hobson, 2002) (Lucidology, 2008;
Richard, 2006). This modulation of specific areas of the brain is due to the
increase in acetylcholine and results from the activation of the cholergenic
REM on system (Hobson, 2002).

 

If we pull the different types of drugs your sleep again
contain apart we see a number of different things possibly happening. Your
sleep aid contains melatonin which is a precursor to serotonin, which is also a
demodulator of REM. This means that it actually suppresses REM until it wears
off. Studies have shown that when serotonin is present, that memory, and REM is
not. The compound theonine is what seems to be a precursor to a neurotransmitter
GABA. GABA has always been a little hard for me to understand and I really
haven't paid much attention to it because my experiments with precursors to
GABA haven't really effected my sleep as far as I could tell (myzeo experiments
coming soon to find out the truth), but after a little looking around on the internet
I found a good bit of information on GABA.

 

    GABA is the main
inhibitory neurotransmitter of the CNS. It is well established that activation
of GABA(A) receptors favors sleep. Three generations of hypnotics are based on
these GABA(A) receptor-mediated inhibitory processes. The first and second
generation of hypnotics (barbiturates and benzodiazepines respectively)
decrease waking, increase slow-wave sleep and enhance the intermediate stage
situated between slow-wave sleep and paradoxical sleep, at the expense of this
last sleep stage. The third generation of hypnotics (imidazopyridines and
cyclopyrrolones) act similarly on waking and slow-wave sleep but the slight
decrease of paradoxical sleep during the first hours does not result from an
increase of the intermediate stage. It has been shown that GABA(B) receptor
antagonists increase brain-activated behavioral states (waking and paradoxical
sleep: dreaming stage). Recently, a specific GABA(C) receptor antagonist was
synthesized and found by i.c.v. infusion to increase waking at the expense of
slow-wave sleep and paradoxical sleep. Since the sensitivity of GABA(C)
receptors for GABA is higher than that of GABA(A) and GABA(B) receptors,
GABA(C) receptor agonists and antagonists, when available for clinical
practice, could open up a new era for therapy of troubles such as insomnia,
epilepsy and narcolepsy. They could possibly act at lower doses, with fewer
side effects than currently used drugs. This paper reviews the influence of
different kinds of molecules that affect sleep and waking by acting on GABA
receptors.

 

So from what that says it really looks like it depends on
what type of GABA receptor the substance is acting on and its far past the
amount or research I can look into at the moment. It could be counterproductive
to serotonin, increasing REM, or it could be supporting serotonin and decrease
it.

 

Over all its hard to say what exactly the sleep supplement
does but it seems from what you said that the melatonin is most dominate and is
increasing REM later in the night and your feeling the effects of REM rebound
maybe from previous nights of using the product. I would not use this sleep
product every night so that your REM will catch up with itself, but if you are
trying to dream more than its defiantly a good aid.

I will be experimenting with 5-htp which is a precursor to serotonin
over the next month and a half and then next I will start with acetylcholine
Alpha-gpc.

ramdab said:

I found some scientific journal references that showed valium decreases deep sleep although may increase total sleep in some people.

---

I've been conducting some unethical experiments with benzodiazepines lately, and I can confirm that they do seem to decrease the amount of deep sleep. It's not clear exactly why though, it needn't be because of some direct effect on the brain, but could be via increased sleep apnea (which I think I have) or something else.

This seems to explain my non-experimental use of benzos for a sleep disorder. After several years and late stage side effects I'm currently tapering off valium. When I started using the Zeo I had tapered to 2.75mg nightly. My deep and REM readings were averaging about 2% and 16%. Now that I'm down to 1.1mg valium my deep has increased to 6% and REM has decreased to 6%. My total sleep time has also decreased from approx. 8 hrs. to approx. 7 hrs. I hand write several wake-ups each night that are longer than 2 minutes. The Zeo picks up only about 1/3 of them. Maybe my brain's default state is Light sleep!!!

I tried acupuncture for sleep and had what I thought were good results by increasing deep. Now I think it was more a result of less valium!

I'll be following this thread closely as PLMD isn't curable and I won't be able to take any standard sleep aids. Just as well as I had no idea how damaging even a small dosage could be. For those interested in more info about benzos and sleep, check out the Ashton Manual at http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/.

Paradise said:

I hand write several wake-ups each night that are longer than 2 minutes. The Zeo picks up only about 1/3 of them. Maybe my brain's default state is Light sleep!!!

---

My Zeo often thinks I'm in REM (occasionally light sleep) when I'm awake (if I am, Inception etc…), which distorts some of the variables unfortunately, especially when I suffer from serious insomnia. No reason to think it gets deep sleep wrong though, so I focus mostly on that variable (probably the most interesting one anyway).

Niko said:

[...]No reason to think it gets deep sleep wrong though, so I focus mostly on that variable (probably the most interesting one anyway).

---

Deep is what I focused on initially, too, as my REM was within the normal range, around 20%. Now that deep is increasing and REM has tanked, I tend to focus more on %age of each with the next goal being 25% combined total. Currently I'm in the 12-18% range. I've also learned that, for me, I feel best when REM % is higher than deep %. Monday night, at 18%, REM was double that of deep. That made for a really good Tuesday! Last night, at 18%, deep was higher than REM. We'll see what that does to today!
 

Regardless, like a PSG, the Zeo isn't an exact science, so there will always be a margin of error. I just want to see my averages continue to rise. I love being able to monitor my sleep and probably the biggest plus for me is that I look forward to going to bed instead of dreading another sleepless night.

I love my Zeo!

One peculiarity of my sleep is that my deep sleep is distributed over several periods of about equal size, and the last of these is often closer to when I wake up than when I went to sleep. Very different from the typical pattern (as I've read) of having most deep sleep early in the night in one big block or two.

Also not uncommon for me to get straight into REM upon falling asleep, although I knew that even before I got the Zeo. REM supposedly typically occurs after several hours of sleep.

My sleep stages are really jumbled like that, even when I sleep fairly well overall. Don't think I've had a single night that's even near being what is claimed to be typical. It's easy enough to explain away all that with bromides like "we're all different" etc, and that's true enough but a deviation beyond a certain point is abnormal and possibly seriously pathological. I don't know where that point is on this issue.

Btw, I think benzos increased my REM to an amount far beyond average. Now (with no benzo) the amount is more normal.

Niko, you said that now your deep sleep is increasing.  Pleaseeee, how did you do that? 

I have currently just started Gabitril (a GABA reuptake inhibitor so it increases GABA in the brain).  First few nites no real increase, just feel bit groggier than usual.  I am starting on a low dose so it will take a few weeks to really give it a good try. 

Good sleeping,

Dick

ramdab said:

Niko, you said that now your deep sleep is increasing.  Pleaseeee, how did you do that? 

---

Not sure except getting off benzo (which is too bad since I like them, and I won't quit completely...) Well, in my case I also have to avoid exercise or even any exertion at all, but I have CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome) so there's something wrong in the way my body generates energy (possibly something mitochondrial). When I exert myself I go into a state of serious illness. Last week I was carrying a couple of heavy bags of groceries + a few other small things, and as a result I slept less than three hours and had very little deep sleep. And conversely, the more I rest during the day, the better I sleep.

Somehow our culture is stuck on the idea that exercise is the solution to everything from medical conditions to imploding galaxies, but it isn't (except when it is).

Niko said:

[...]
My sleep stages are really jumbled like that, even when I sleep fairly well overall. Don't think I've had a single night that's even near being what is claimed to be typical. It's easy enough to explain away all that with bromides like "we're all different" etc, and that's true enough but a deviation beyond a certain point is abnormal and possibly seriously pathological. I don't know where that point is on this issue.

Btw, I think benzos increased my REM to an amount far beyond average. Now (with no benzo) the amount is more normal.

---

Niko, have you been assessed by a sleep doc and had a PSG? That's how I was diagnosed with PLMD and it was a diagnosis I didn't expect. Regardless, I was really happy to get a diagnosis and to stop wondering why I had such bizarre, daily symptoms. BTW, it took my primary doctor 7 years of listening to my symptoms and complaining about my sleep to refer me to a sleep doc. And all it took was one night in a sleep lab to get a diagnosis. Having that info allows me to keep the limitations (2 min. wake algorithm) of the Zeo in mind.

I, too, believe benzos increase REM. I'm convinced they decrease deep. Last night I got 1 hr. 24 min./19% REM which was typical for me on a slightly higher dose benzo but not at all typical on my current very low dose. I'm sure it was rebound REM, tho'. I could really feel a positive difference this morning. However, for me, deep and REM are never high on the same night. When one rises, the other falls. This morning, feeling less fatigued, I went out for a walk and by this afternoon my muscles ached horribly from the low deep (20/4%) and 5 wake-ups.

On my wish list is a 100% safe sleeping plll compounded according to one's individual sleep needs! Yah! Right! I wasn't aware benzos could turn on low dose users the way they did on me and, I've learned, so many others. My sleep doc told me I'd need them for the rest of my life. Be careful, folks.

Paradise said:

Niko, have you been assessed by a sleep doc and had a PSG? That's how I was diagnosed with PLMD and it was a diagnosis I didn't expect. Regardless, I was really happy to get a diagnosis and to stop wondering why I had such bizarre, daily symptoms. BTW, it took my primary doctor 7 years of listening to my symptoms and complaining about my sleep to refer me to a sleep doc. And all it took was one night in a sleep lab to get a diagnosis. Having that info allows me to keep the limitations (2 min. wake algorithm) of the Zeo in mind.

---

No PSG. It's hard to get any real help, but I'm also not sure if I want to go through with it right now, especially if I have to travel (they didn't use to have a sleep lab in my area, not sure about these days). I guess it would be a valuable long-term investment whatever the short-term inconvenience, if nothing else to rule out some conditions, but I just can't make myself go for that right now, and my new devices will provide some progress for a while anyway.

I used to have restless legs, a pretty serious case lasting many years, but it's 80% gone now and on it's way to complete extinction (hopefully).

I know I'm snoring which wakes me up several times each night, sometimes prevent me from falling asleep again (I fall asleep, begin snoring, and wake up immediately and then can't fall asleep again). That's also partly why I suspect I have sleep apnea as well.

And I have bruxism, for which I've had a splint for years. There are splints designed to reduce snoring, but I don't think I can have two splints at once, and I'm not sure if they can combine both functions in one splint (for both bruxism and snoring).

My plan right now right is to improve my posture, because bad posture worsens snoring (and possibly apnea) I'm pretty certain of, because it tightens the airways. And perhaps lose some weight although I'm not sure I can do it.

Why does your doc say you need benzo for the rest of your life? I'm going to be more careful about using it in the future, but I still feel safe having a benzo stash if going gets tough and I need to fall asleep. Better to sleep with bad deep sleep than not being able to fall asleep at all. Also, I'm hoping I'm still able to use benzo during the day (only some days) without too much lost deep sleep. Experiments on that coming up.

I'm wondering about the effect of caffeine on (deep) sleep. It's a classic anti-sleep substance of course, but now we have the possibility to measure the effect for ourselves.

Well...bummers! I posted a lengthy reply to you awhile back, Niko, but it's nowhere to be found!

Did you do anything specific for your RLS or did it disappear on it's own? I have that, too. RLS and PLMD are different animals but both are neurological in nature. I don't have RLS every day but I do have PLMD every night. Since I can't monitor micro wake-ups with the Zeo, I monitor deep, REM and %age. I figure the lower my numbers, the higher my number of micro wake-ups. My PSG showed an average of 17 wake-ups per hour.

PLMD isn't curable which is why my sleep doc said I'd need sleep meds for the rest of my life. My med taper should be complete by the end of summer. Sleep doc said my sleep might reset itself. That'd be a miracle as PLMD has a genetic component and my dad also had it.

It sure sounds like you have apnea. But, I have a question. When you're lying down in bed how does posture figure into possibly improving the apnea? Regardless, best of luck in finding your answers. Sleep is such a complex subject.

My personal experience after about 6 months of data:   Benzos (in my case, termazepam) significantly decrease deep sleep.  With Benzos I averaged 30-50 mins nightly.  Without I average 1 hour 10 mins nightly.  They have no effect on REM.  My cause and effect show a decrease on average of about 2 mins a night when I was on the drug.

 

I am curious to see what you are able to find out about the 5 htp.  I only have one night of data with that but my deep sleep logged 1 hour 37 mins and my REM was 1 hour 27 in a 6 hour night of sleep.  I woke up kind of moody the next morning.  Anyone else have data from use of this drug/supplement?

Didn't know of the replies until now, didn't get an email notification for some reason.

About reducing my RLS: it was and is somehow related to my neck and/or jaw, and by doing rehabilitation of those (mostly consisting of extended stretching and/or massage) it increasingly got better, slowly. Right after a session it gets a lot worse (sometimes going from zero problem at that moment to a full scale RLS-attack after perhaps 30+ minutes of rehab), but over time it got overall better. I still fairly often have mild RLS.

This could be related to a possible whiplash damage (car accident). I've had a lot of problems related to my neck, and an MRI showed some problems in that area as well.

Posture: apparently it's fairly common that lying on the back makes snoring and apnea worse. Unfortunately I still snore while lying on the side, but possibly less, I don't know. I'd like to try lying on my stomach, but my jaw muscles are still too tight for the head position (that turned position). But just generally getting less tight muscles in the neck (which I work with daily, same rehab that reduced the RLS) will make it more straight, which I think will reduce snoring (and apnea).

I find it easy to make snoring sounds at will when my neck is in its normal position, and much harder when I straighten the neck (because of better air flow). However, because of the tight muscles (or scar tissue, or whatever it is) the neck goes back to the old position as soon as I don't deliberately straighten it, which naturally I can't do while sleeping. The only way I think is to keep softening that tissue with rehab so it's more straight without effort. I'm currently looking into buying some equipment, like one of those electrical neck massagers.