GOM - stratagies to 'go Lucid'

published by unLucid on Thu, 03/03/2011 - 10:30
English

Ok.. let's see if anyone actually reads this or gives a hoot - enough to respond.

First - a little about me....

I have been trying to go lucid since '85 or so - when I first heard about LaBerges work in Palo Alto.

My score card: attempts - Zillions    successes - Zilch

I've tried just about everything known to man, and then a few

My arsenal:

- I got the first nova dreamer from LaBerge when it was just a digital timer mask, and kept on getting each new improvement and firmware update after they added IR Rem detection. Lately I've tried the Rem-Dreamer (ELI - made in Poland).

-  I've got a Zeo (had to order it through Blackstone, as Zeo's 'anal?' marketing scheme will not accept orders from Canada - Come On guys - 'Get Over It' and start selling to the rest of the world!! There are a lot of smart people out there who would love to support your product).

Suppliments:

- choline, galantamine, macuna (L-Dopa), vervain, peppermint, Mugwort, Cala-Z...... ad infinitum.

My Story:

I have come to realize that (contrary to my previous opinion) I do indeed dream!!

After I go to sleep at night,  my next awareness is almost always -- Morning!  However, I have in the last 20 years been able to recall 1-2 very vivid dreams - and only because I woke in the middle of them.

It seems that If I do not wake while in the dream, I do not REMEMBER dreaming!!! - which is the key to my problem and my new strategy .

My Concept:

- From what I have been able to glean over the years:

- dreaming has loose association to the REM state - but not all dreams are in REM and not all REM's result in dreams.

- muscarinic agents (parasympathomimetics) such as choline, cholinesterase inhibitors (galantamine, huperzine-A) enhance (but are not essential to) dreaming late in the sleep cycle (but will keep you awake if taken early in the sleep cycle).

- dopaminergic agents (L-dopa), macuna... can also enhance dreaming (without increasing the frequency of REM) if taken late in the sleep cycle.

- seratoninergics (5-htp, melatonin) drecrease dreaming, and increase the amt. of non-REM sleep - should be taken well before sleep time as they facilitate falling asleep, but will have 'worn off' later in the sleep cycle.

So.. when I take 5-htp / melatonin 1 hour before bed, then take the 'dream enhancers' listed above at bedtime (along with 1g of Omega3 to delay stomach emptying and so delay absorption until later in the sleep cycle...

I still don't recall any dreams, even though ZEO shows I have had 3-4 REM cycles during the night!!!

So, I think I need to find a way to 'reliably' wake up during or immediately after a REM period.

Question:

- does ZEO's smartwake wake you up

a) any time you are in light sleep mode, or

b) only when you transition from REM to Light Sleep. 

Assuming that you are still within the 'time constraint' window you have set.

I am hoping the answer is 'b)'!!  If that is the case, then by setting my 'awake window' to say 4 hours' I should catch and be awakened from any transition from REM to Light - and thus hopefully REMEMBER the dream.

I'll report back on any successes I may have.

 

(if the Geeks at Zeo - bless you guys - could just add a 'dream detector: ie - 40Hz filter-> 'on' with alpha range -> 'off'' and couple that to the wake function as a selectable user option,  that would be teriffic!!)

Brian Schiffer

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 08:03

Hi unLucid and welcome to the forums!

 

I personally am a sporadic lucid dreamer and would love to have more lucid dreaming features incorporated with Zeo.

 

There are several issues with trying to use the SmartWake for lucid dreaming:

  1. The max wake window is 40min
  2. The alarm will go off towards the end of REM or in Light...no gaurantee it will go off at a useful time
  3. The alarm will grow in amplitude until it forces you to wake up.

That being said, it has been suggested as a great way for techniques like WBTB.

Your current best bet to use Zeo for lucid dreaming is the RDL and using the awesome lucid dreaming program created here on the forums.

I will also be building lucid dreaming capabilities into my site soon.

 

Best,

Brian

Derek@Zeo's picture

Derek@Zeo

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 08:09

unLucid – we read everything! And of course we like responding…

 

I'll field the few Zeo-specific questions you have and leave the other lucid questions (where my experience is zilch) to other folks on the forums…

 

RE: Canada. We're working on it. No ETA just yet, but we'll get there soon (though I'm sorry you had to work around it).

RE: SmartWake. There's a post on Smartwake here that gives the background story, but getting into the nitty gritty, SmartWake actually has several conditions that it looks for during your wake window (prioritized by how groggy you would feel on waking from them)… among which are transition out of REM, the transition into REM, if you are awake, or if it looks like you're falling into deep sleep (from light sleep). I don't think any of these transitions will give you what you are looking for…

RE: My understanding is that your dreams will be most intense in the midst of a REM cycle, but we don't have a dream detector (a great idea) on the roadmap… though it looks like some have tried some cool stuff around this… Hopefully a hacker pulls through!

 

Good luck and do keep us posted!

 

PS ~ for some reason, Brian's post didn't show up when I was responding...

unLucid

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 17:57

Hello Brian and Derek.  Thank you for answering so quickly.

 

Brian:

Thanks for the info. on the smart wake and the max. length of the window. Although not what I had hoped, it is important to always start from a correct set of premisses, or failure is certain.

I have decided to try yet again to achieve 'lucidity' (I seem to go through phases every few years - one good thing about an obsession is that it provides the drive required to continue in the face of failure).  So I will start to plan my next strategy.  I will look at the RDL and the lucidity link that you indicated.

A few years ago I worked on the development of a real-time blood an urine analyte identification / diagnostic system  I did most of the prototyping in MatLab, and then developed it in C++ (mainly a series of image processing routines feeding multiple neural nets).  Sounds like this approach may be vaguely similar to what you fellows are doing.  I think someone said the libs are in java - I got my Sun Java prof. cert. a few years ago, so I may actually have a chance of succeeding :-)  Now I just have to find the time/

 

Derek:

Thank you for the information on smart awake, and for your diplomacy :-)  I will look at the links you provided.

To have any chance of succeeding I will need to stay with this for a while - so I will need to obtain several of the replacement head pads (and probably another sending unit - things always break down at the worst time).  I would like to do this while our dollar is at par with yours in order to save money. 

Could you please tell me how I can send you money (PayPal, phone # for a visa card, money order, gold bullion, ....)  as I would like to purchase 4 pads and 1 sending unit as soon as I can.

 

Thank you again.

Mike

Derek@Zeo's picture

Derek@Zeo

Tue, 03/08/2011 - 05:08

Good thing you have bullion lying around - that's currently the only currency we accept ;)

 

I've just asked our support team to reach out to you (via email on your forum account) to get you what you need!

-Derek@Zeo

unLucid

Tue, 03/08/2011 - 14:56

Thanks Derek... I'll keep checking my email.

I'm just ordering some more suppliments that may have potential for my project (both REM suppressors and enhancers)

I think the best chance of success is the following...

1) take the REM suppressors at various times before bed based on their individual time to peak plasma level and their plasma half-life, such that their blood leves will have droped to below therapeutic effect by ~ 3-4 hours after sleep start.

2) take the REM./ dream inducers at bedtime along with ~1gm Omega3 oil (to delay stomach emptying - and absorption) by about 1-2 hours. This should have the blood levels of the inducers peaking around 3-5 hours after sleep start - just in time to enhance the 'REM-rebound' effect caused by the wearing - off of the REM suppressors (see above).

3) figure out or hack the ZEO (and maybe the REM DREAMER mask - or both) to wake me when I transition from REM to Light sleep so that I can REMEMBER the dream.

I thnk my biggest problem lies in REMEMBERING the dreams .. as ZEO shows me having 2-4 REM periods each night.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

Mike

Derek@Zeo's picture

Derek@Zeo

Wed, 03/09/2011 - 04:31

Look forward to hearing about them!

 

PS ~ You should have received an email from Chelas@Zeo about the supplies. Email me at derek[at]myzeo.com if you haven't.

Neon (not verified)

Mon, 01/02/2012 - 19:30

Hi, I have some experience with lucid dreaming, as well as the difficulties that can arise due to various mental blocks, which can prevent dream recall and ability to attain lucidity within a dream.

I gather a few things from your post.
1: You may not be getting enough sleep. Most of my lucid dreams have occurred in my sixth dream. If you never make it past 3 or 4 dreams in the night you are minimizing your chances of success. (An exercise routine works wonders for this, and never take a nap longer than 20 minutes.)
2: Waking up immediately after the dream occurs and reminiscing it before you move a muscle is essential to dream recall. All it takes is a roll-over and chances are it'll all be gone. To overcome this you will need to condition yourself, since usually when you first wake up you will be too foggy to remember what to do; it has to be practiced until it is automatic.

What I did was, I set my alarm for a few minutes into the future, and then meditated in my usual sleeping position until it went off. Then I stayed still while going back over the thoughts that surfaced during the meditation. Then I repeat that until I'm bored silly of it. Now that it's habit, I do it every morning when I wake up, and thus remember at least one dream every day.

Without solid dream recall to build a list of reliable dream signs, it will be very difficult to recognize your dreams from the inside.

Self hypnosis/NLP has also been a great help for me in my quest for lucidity, so I assume using a licensed hypnotherapist would be able to help as well. Use it to condition yourself to respond to dream signs with a reality check.

Tibetan monks would practice lucidity by being constantly lucid even when awake. They recognized the "real" world as transient and therefore a dream in and of itself. I've tried it, but being mindful in every moment is more difficult than one might think, and I found it quite exhausting.

One other tip that can make dreams really pop is a herb called Salvia Divinorum. It has been in use for thousands of years, at least, by Mazatec Shamans for dream work and healing rituals. I hesitate to recommend it because it is a powerful entheogen, and should never be used by an inexperienced oieronaut without a "sitter", which is someone who will supervise you when you go under. At high doses some people get up and walk around during the "trip" without being aware of it, so there is a real possibility of harming yourself without someone there to keep you safe. Until one is experienced enough with the plant to know what constitutes a high dose, a sitter is very important.

That being said, it ramps up the intensity of my dreams by a factor of ten for a few days after smoking even a small amount. If you're the adventurous type you may wish to give it a try, it makes noticing the dream state a lot easier.

Bear in mind, it is illegal in a few states in the US. The list of those states can be googld.

toby (not verified)

Tue, 01/03/2012 - 05:40

not sure if yours is the latest model though it has a dream alarm try using that to boost your dream recall the rem dreamer will wake u in rem making easyer to remember. i have found a good vitamin b complex helps i was informed that b12 and b6 would make my dreams more vivid though ive found i just helps me remember a lot easyer
hope this helps